Time passed, and some necessity having emerged, they send again for John. He, when he had settled the other matters on account of which he came, said, "Come now, O bishop, restore to us the deposit which I and the Saviour committed to you in the face of the Church over which you preside, as witness." The other was at first confounded, thinking that it was a false charge about money which he did not get; and he could neither believe the allegation regarding what he had not, nor disbelieve John. But when he said "I demand the young man, and the soul of the brother," the old man, groaning deeply, and bursting into tears, said, "He is dead."
"How and what kind of death?"
"He is dead," he said, "to God. For he turned wicked and abandoned, and at last a robber; and now he has taken possession of the mountain in front of the church, along with a band like him."
Rending, therefore, his clothes, and striking his head with great lamentation, the apostle said, "It was a fine guard of a brother's soul I left! But let a horse be brought me, and let some one be my guide on the way." He rode away, just as he was, straight from the church.
On coming to the place, he is arrested by the robbers' outpost; neither fleeing nor entreating, but crying, "It was for this I came. Lead me to your captain;" who meanwhile was waiting, all armed as he was. But when he recognized John as he advanced, he turned, ashamed, to flight. The other followed with all his might, forgetting his age, crying, "Why, my son, do you flee from me, your father, unarmed, old? Son, pity me. Fear not; you have still hope of life. I will give account to Christ for you. If need be, I will willingly endure your death, as the Lord did death for us. For you I will surrender my life. Stand, believe; Christ has sent me."
And he, when he heard, first stood, looking down; then threw down his arms, then trembled and wept bitterly. And on the old man approaching, he embraced him, speaking for himself with lamentations as he could, and baptized a second time with tears, concealing only his right hand. The other pledging, and assuring him on oath that he would find forgiveness for himself from the Saviour, beseeching and falling on his knees, and kissing his right hand itself, as now purified by repentance, led him back to the church.
Your story reminded me of another one that I thought might be uplifting to share.
This is an extra-biblical story about the Apostle John, as told by Clement of Alexandria (c. 150 to 215 A.D.) in his article "Who is the Rich Man That Shall Be Saved?."
This is the last section of the piece, and I find it so powerful that I'm moved to tears almost every time I read it. I hope you are encouraged by it.
Part 1 of 3: --------------
And that you may be still more confident, that repenting thus truly there remains for you a sure hope of salvation, listen to a tale, which is not a tale but a narrative, handed down and committed to the custody of memory, about the Apostle John. For when, on the tyrant's death, he returned to Ephesus from the isle of Patmos, he went away, being invited, to the contiguous territories of the nations, here to appoint bishops, there to set in order whole Churches, there to ordain such as were marked out by the Spirit.
Having come to one of the cities not far off (the name of which some give ), and having put the brethren to rest in other matters, at last, looking to the bishop appointed, and seeing a youth, powerful in body, comely in appearance, and ardent, said, "This (youth) I commit to you in all earnestness, in the presence of the Church, and with Christ as witness." And on his accepting and promising all, he gave the same injunction and testimony. And he set out for Ephesus. And the presbyter taking home the youth committed to him, reared, kept, cherished, and finally baptized him. After this he relaxed his stricter care and guardianship, under the idea that the seal of the Lord he had set on him was a complete protection to him. But on his obtaining premature freedom, some youths of his age, idle, dissolute, and adepts in evil courses, corrupt him. First they entice him by many costly entertainments; then afterwards by night issuing forth for highway robbery, they take him along with them. Then they dared to execute together something greater. And he by degrees got accustomed; and from greatness of nature, when he had gone aside from the right path, and like a hard-mouthed and powerful horse, had taken the bit between his teeth, rushed with all the more force down into the depths. And having entirely despaired of salvation in God, he no longer meditated what was insignificant, but having perpetrated some great exploit, now that he was once lost, he made up his mind to a like fate with the rest. Taking them and forming a band of robbers, he was the prompt captain of the bandits, the fiercest, the bloodiest, the cruelest.
After having come out so strongly against force, it seems good to add one more story here to balance it out. I don't want people who might read this to get the wrong impression. If force is wrong, it would be wrong for me to pressure or "force" people to give it up too.
I'm reminded of a story that I read regarding the early Quakers. From what I've read, the early Quakers had somewhat different views and beliefs than modern ones, but I'm not an expert on this.
Anyway, a man, who was a soldier or police officer (I don't remember which), who was also a believer, asked George Fox, the founder of the Quakers, whether he should continue to carry his sword.
George Fox replied, "Carry it as long as you can."
About a year later, the two met again, and George Fox, noticing that the man did not carry a sword, asked him about it. The man replied, "I did as you said: I carried it as long as I could."
I love this story, because it shows me two things: 1) the man did eventually lay down his sword, but 2) it happened according to God's timing and purpose, not according to man's.
I think this is a good thing to remember. When talking about social change, or perhaps the abolition of government via anarchy, or even when talking about giving up the use of force, like I did above, I think it's important to remember that this needs to come from God, not man. For how will man convince another man to give up his sword? Or how will he convince him to give up his power or his government, or even his country? The best way is for this change to come from within, by the power of God.
For God still uses men who carry the sword to serve His purpose. They are called "ministers of God" in Romans 13:4. But as necessary a such a man is, he is still a minister of the old system, the system of eye for an eye, the system of "5 years in prison for crime X." That system still exists, but we don't have to remain in it, or in other words, of that system. But we can only escape it by doing good, and at that point, it has no power over us, since there would be nothing to punish. And even if we were punished for doing good, it would be to our eternal benefit, with riches in heaven, where our treasure and hearts and thoughts of home and country really should be.
Hey Joe! My name is Talaya. I know Mary probably has mentioned me. (she better had!) I thank you for sharing. It means a lot to me. Around the same time this happened to you, my brother Terry was shot and killed. Talking with Mary about this really helped me forgive whoever it was that killed my brother. Both of us going thru something very tragic in our lives helped us grow together closer to the Lord and closer to eachother. I am glad that you have admitted what you have done and also that you are asking for forgiveness. It wasn't easy to forgive, but I know that is what God wants. I also just pray for he or she that killed my brother that they may give their life to the Lord and know that they may be forgiven. I do pray for you and I pray that God will continue to use you. You have an awesome mom and sister! I know they both love you very much. Joe keep pressing on! Rejoice always! Talaya
There are many causes that I would die for. Not single one that I would kill for. However this is not the forum for this conversation. We will have to agree to disagree. Blessings! A
Hi Precious! And the world thanks you for your kisses and sends many, many more your way. We speak about you often and it is always with love and affection. Bright bessings to you and the rest of the gang - from Texas and abroad.
I'm afraid that I wasn't as clear as I should have been in my previous post. I don't believe that Jesus was cowardly.
I was trying to point out that if the use of force was good, why didn't Jesus use more of it? If force is a good thing, then Jesus was lax by not employing it to advance His kingdom. But instead of promoting the use of force, He tells us to "resist not evil", and to turn the other cheek, and to go the extra mile. (Sermon on the Mount again, Matthew 5, 6, 7)
I think it takes a lot of bravery to live like that, to do good no matter what, and to never return evil for evil.
And Jesus didn't teach people to disobey. In fact, He told His disciples that they had to obey the very men He called hypocrites, simply because those hypocrites were in a place of authority. (Matt 23:1-3) As long as obeying was not sin, obedience was required.
Yes, He did indeed shine a light on the evil of the day, and He didn't let up. He was very persistent, and never compromised. But He never killed anyone, nor picked up a sword. Instead of killing, He brought the dead back to life.
The only reason the disciples had a sword at that time was to fulfill prophecy. (Luke 22:36-38) And that very prophecy called those sword-bearers "transgressors".
With all these examples and teachings against violence and force and rebellion, I think the question is more: why did Jesus use a whip in the temple at all? Personally, I think it is to show us that Jesus cannot abide evil. Evil will die on its own. To be with Jesus means to leave evil behind. If we cling to evil, He will drive us from His presence, just like He did the money changers.
Because if we insist on living under the "eye for an eye" system of law, returning evil for evil, then we should not expect to hang out with Jesus when He lets us have what we asked for, and leaves us in that very evil that He will not mix with. If we insist to be judged by a just law of "eye for an eye", He will! And we will die.
As the saying goes, those that live by the sword will die by the sword. (Matt. 26:52)
So if force is evil, it explains Jesus's teaching and actions, and we also need to leave it behind. But if force is good, we are left with a perplexing contradiction, since His teaching and behaviour don't seem to support it.
Hi again! The operative phrase here is; "They had swords..." They were armed and willing use them - He said not to. Obviously he couldn't let them fight on THAT night he knew better any one else on alive that he was part of a prophesy that had already been hinted at in Genesis. Certainly he preached that people should obey Ceasar - but ONLY if in doing so they did not contravene God's will. Again I'm with Jesus on this score. He NEVER stood idly buy and allowed unrighteousness to continue. He called them up on it he insulted them and their heritage. He challenged the laws of the day he encouraged people to disobey he preached change and he believed we could be better. The people of the day considered him an anarchist and murdered him for his views. If this seems cowardly to you I will have to disagree.
Thanks for your reply.... I just have a few questions to add.
If sometimes force is required, why is the story of Jesus and the money changers the only place where He uses even a hint of physical force? Was there no other cause in His day that was worth fighting for?
What about the Pharisees? Why didn't He fight against them for leading the people astray instead of just rebuke them? For He even said that the Devil was their father!
What about the Romans who ruled over Israel? Why didn't he lead an insurrection against them? Or at least preach against the tax collectors? He had the people on His side, for there were times when the Jews wanted to kill Him, but they were afraid of the people. Why didn't He use that popular support?
And why didn't He let His disciples fight to prevent His arrest and execution? They had swords. Wasn't it better in human terms to continue preaching and teaching and healing, rather than surrender to the authorities and be put to death?
If force is good, Jesus seems awfully inconsistent, even cowardly, in using it.
RSS
Time passed, and some necessity having emerged, they send again for John. He, when he had settled the other matters on account of which he came, said, "Come now, O bishop, restore to us the deposit which I and the Saviour committed to you in the face of the Church over which you preside, as witness." The other was at first confounded, thinking that it was a false charge about money which he did not get; and he could neither believe the allegation regarding what he had not, nor disbelieve John. But when he said "I demand the young man, and the soul of the brother," the old man, groaning deeply, and bursting into tears, said, "He is dead."
"How and what kind of death?"
"He is dead," he said, "to God. For he turned wicked and abandoned, and at last a robber; and now he has taken possession of the mountain in front of the church, along with a band like him."
Rending, therefore, his clothes, and striking his head with great lamentation, the apostle said, "It was a fine guard of a brother's soul I left! But let a horse be brought me, and let some one be my guide on the way." He rode away, just as he was, straight from the church.
On coming to the place, he is arrested by the robbers' outpost; neither fleeing nor entreating, but crying, "It was for this I came. Lead me to your captain;" who meanwhile was waiting, all armed as he was. But when he recognized John as he advanced, he turned, ashamed, to flight. The other followed with all his might, forgetting his age, crying, "Why, my son, do you flee from me, your father, unarmed, old? Son, pity me. Fear not; you have still hope of life. I will give account to Christ for you. If need be, I will willingly endure your death, as the Lord did death for us. For you I will surrender my life. Stand, believe; Christ has sent me."
And he, when he heard, first stood, looking down; then threw down his arms, then trembled and wept bitterly. And on the old man approaching, he embraced him, speaking for himself with lamentations as he could, and baptized a second time with tears, concealing only his right hand. The other pledging, and assuring him on oath that he would find forgiveness for himself from the Saviour, beseeching and falling on his knees, and kissing his right hand itself, as now purified by repentance, led him back to the church.
Your story reminded me of another one that I thought might be uplifting to share.
This is an extra-biblical story about the Apostle John, as told by Clement of Alexandria (c. 150 to 215 A.D.) in his article "Who is the Rich Man That Shall Be Saved?."
This is the last section of the piece, and I find it so powerful that I'm moved to tears almost every time I read it. I hope you are encouraged by it.
Part 1 of 3:
--------------
And that you may be still more confident, that repenting thus truly there remains for you a sure hope of salvation, listen to a tale, which is not a tale but a narrative, handed down and committed to the custody of memory, about the Apostle John. For when, on the tyrant's death, he returned to Ephesus from the isle of Patmos, he went away, being invited, to the contiguous territories of the nations, here to appoint bishops, there to set in order whole Churches, there to ordain such as were marked out by the Spirit.
Having come to one of the cities not far off (the name of which some give ), and having put the brethren to rest in other matters, at last, looking to the bishop appointed, and seeing a youth, powerful in body, comely in appearance, and ardent, said, "This (youth) I commit to you in all earnestness, in the presence of the Church, and with Christ as witness." And on his accepting and promising all, he gave the same injunction and testimony. And he set out for Ephesus. And the presbyter taking home the youth committed to him, reared, kept, cherished, and finally baptized him. After this he relaxed his stricter care and guardianship, under the idea that the seal of the Lord he had set on him was a complete protection to him. But on his obtaining premature freedom, some youths of his age, idle, dissolute, and adepts in evil courses, corrupt him. First they entice him by many costly entertainments; then afterwards by night issuing forth for highway robbery, they take him along with them. Then they dared to execute together something greater. And he by degrees got accustomed; and from greatness of nature, when he had gone aside from the right path, and like a hard-mouthed and powerful horse, had taken the bit between his teeth, rushed with all the more force down into the depths. And having entirely despaired of salvation in God, he no longer meditated what was insignificant, but having perpetrated some great exploit, now that he was once lost, he made up his mind to a like fate with the rest. Taking them and forming a band of robbers, he was the prompt captain of the bandits, the fiercest, the bloodiest, the cruelest.
I'm reminded of a story that I read regarding the early Quakers. From what I've read, the early Quakers had somewhat different views and beliefs than modern ones, but I'm not an expert on this.
Anyway, a man, who was a soldier or police officer (I don't remember which), who was also a believer, asked George Fox, the founder of the Quakers, whether he should continue to carry his sword.
George Fox replied, "Carry it as long as you can."
About a year later, the two met again, and George Fox, noticing that the man did not carry a sword, asked him about it. The man replied, "I did as you said: I carried it as long as I could."
I love this story, because it shows me two things: 1) the man did eventually lay down his sword, but 2) it happened according to God's timing and purpose, not according to man's.
I think this is a good thing to remember. When talking about social change, or perhaps the abolition of government via anarchy, or even when talking about giving up the use of force, like I did above, I think it's important to remember that this needs to come from God, not man. For how will man convince another man to give up his sword? Or how will he convince him to give up his power or his government, or even his country? The best way is for this change to come from within, by the power of God.
For God still uses men who carry the sword to serve His purpose. They are called "ministers of God" in Romans 13:4. But as necessary a such a man is, he is still a minister of the old system, the system of eye for an eye, the system of "5 years in prison for crime X." That system still exists, but we don't have to remain in it, or in other words, of that system. But we can only escape it by doing good, and at that point, it has no power over us, since there would be nothing to punish. And even if we were punished for doing good, it would be to our eternal benefit, with riches in heaven, where our treasure and hearts and thoughts of home and country really should be.
My name is Talaya. I know Mary probably has mentioned me. (she better had!) I thank you for sharing. It means a lot to me. Around the same time this happened to you, my brother Terry was shot and killed. Talking with Mary about this really helped me forgive whoever it was that killed my brother. Both of us going thru something very tragic in our lives helped us grow together closer to the Lord and closer to eachother. I am glad that you have admitted what you have done and also that you are asking for forgiveness. It wasn't easy to forgive, but I know that is what God wants. I also just pray for he or she that killed my brother that they may give their life to the Lord and know that they may be forgiven. I do pray for you and I pray that God will continue to use you. You have an awesome mom and sister! I know they both love you very much. Joe keep pressing on!
Rejoice always!
Talaya
Thanks for your reply!
I'm afraid that I wasn't as clear as I should have been in my previous post. I don't believe that Jesus was cowardly.
I was trying to point out that if the use of force was good, why didn't Jesus use more of it? If force is a good thing, then Jesus was lax by not employing it to advance His kingdom. But instead of promoting the use of force, He tells us to "resist not evil", and to turn the other cheek, and to go the extra mile. (Sermon on the Mount again, Matthew 5, 6, 7)
I think it takes a lot of bravery to live like that, to do good no matter what, and to never return evil for evil.
And Jesus didn't teach people to disobey. In fact, He told His disciples that they had to obey the very men He called hypocrites, simply because those hypocrites were in a place of authority. (Matt 23:1-3) As long as obeying was not sin, obedience was required.
Yes, He did indeed shine a light on the evil of the day, and He didn't let up. He was very persistent, and never compromised. But He never killed anyone, nor picked up a sword. Instead of killing, He brought the dead back to life.
The only reason the disciples had a sword at that time was to fulfill prophecy. (Luke 22:36-38) And that very prophecy called those sword-bearers "transgressors".
With all these examples and teachings against violence and force and rebellion, I think the question is more: why did Jesus use a whip in the temple at all? Personally, I think it is to show us that Jesus cannot abide evil. Evil will die on its own. To be with Jesus means to leave evil behind. If we cling to evil, He will drive us from His presence, just like He did the money changers.
Because if we insist on living under the "eye for an eye" system of law, returning evil for evil, then we should not expect to hang out with Jesus when He lets us have what we asked for, and leaves us in that very evil that He will not mix with. If we insist to be judged by a just law of "eye for an eye", He will! And we will die.
As the saying goes, those that live by the sword will die by the sword. (Matt. 26:52)
So if force is evil, it explains Jesus's teaching and actions, and we also need to leave it behind. But if force is good, we are left with a perplexing contradiction, since His teaching and behaviour don't seem to support it.
If this seems cowardly to you I will have to disagree.
Thanks for your reply.... I just have a few questions to add.
If sometimes force is required, why is the story of Jesus and the money changers the only place where He uses even a hint of physical force? Was there no other cause in His day that was worth fighting for?
What about the Pharisees? Why didn't He fight against them for leading the people astray instead of just rebuke them? For He even said that the Devil was their father!
What about the Romans who ruled over Israel? Why didn't he lead an insurrection against them? Or at least preach against the tax collectors? He had the people on His side, for there were times when the Jews wanted to kill Him, but they were afraid of the people. Why didn't He use that popular support?
And why didn't He let His disciples fight to prevent His arrest and execution? They had swords. Wasn't it better in human terms to continue preaching and teaching and healing, rather than surrender to the authorities and be put to death?
If force is good, Jesus seems awfully inconsistent, even cowardly, in using it.