There are many causes that I would die for. Not single one that I would kill for. However this is not the forum for this conversation. We will have to agree to disagree. Blessings! A
Hi Precious! And the world thanks you for your kisses and sends many, many more your way. We speak about you often and it is always with love and affection. Bright bessings to you and the rest of the gang - from Texas and abroad.
I'm afraid that I wasn't as clear as I should have been in my previous post. I don't believe that Jesus was cowardly.
I was trying to point out that if the use of force was good, why didn't Jesus use more of it? If force is a good thing, then Jesus was lax by not employing it to advance His kingdom. But instead of promoting the use of force, He tells us to "resist not evil", and to turn the other cheek, and to go the extra mile. (Sermon on the Mount again, Matthew 5, 6, 7)
I think it takes a lot of bravery to live like that, to do good no matter what, and to never return evil for evil.
And Jesus didn't teach people to disobey. In fact, He told His disciples that they had to obey the very men He called hypocrites, simply because those hypocrites were in a place of authority. (Matt 23:1-3) As long as obeying was not sin, obedience was required.
Yes, He did indeed shine a light on the evil of the day, and He didn't let up. He was very persistent, and never compromised. But He never killed anyone, nor picked up a sword. Instead of killing, He brought the dead back to life.
The only reason the disciples had a sword at that time was to fulfill prophecy. (Luke 22:36-38) And that very prophecy called those sword-bearers "transgressors".
With all these examples and teachings against violence and force and rebellion, I think the question is more: why did Jesus use a whip in the temple at all? Personally, I think it is to show us that Jesus cannot abide evil. Evil will die on its own. To be with Jesus means to leave evil behind. If we cling to evil, He will drive us from His presence, just like He did the money changers.
Because if we insist on living under the "eye for an eye" system of law, returning evil for evil, then we should not expect to hang out with Jesus when He lets us have what we asked for, and leaves us in that very evil that He will not mix with. If we insist to be judged by a just law of "eye for an eye", He will! And we will die.
As the saying goes, those that live by the sword will die by the sword. (Matt. 26:52)
So if force is evil, it explains Jesus's teaching and actions, and we also need to leave it behind. But if force is good, we are left with a perplexing contradiction, since His teaching and behaviour don't seem to support it.
Hi again! The operative phrase here is; "They had swords..." They were armed and willing use them - He said not to. Obviously he couldn't let them fight on THAT night he knew better any one else on alive that he was part of a prophesy that had already been hinted at in Genesis. Certainly he preached that people should obey Ceasar - but ONLY if in doing so they did not contravene God's will. Again I'm with Jesus on this score. He NEVER stood idly buy and allowed unrighteousness to continue. He called them up on it he insulted them and their heritage. He challenged the laws of the day he encouraged people to disobey he preached change and he believed we could be better. The people of the day considered him an anarchist and murdered him for his views. If this seems cowardly to you I will have to disagree.
Thanks for your reply.... I just have a few questions to add.
If sometimes force is required, why is the story of Jesus and the money changers the only place where He uses even a hint of physical force? Was there no other cause in His day that was worth fighting for?
What about the Pharisees? Why didn't He fight against them for leading the people astray instead of just rebuke them? For He even said that the Devil was their father!
What about the Romans who ruled over Israel? Why didn't he lead an insurrection against them? Or at least preach against the tax collectors? He had the people on His side, for there were times when the Jews wanted to kill Him, but they were afraid of the people. Why didn't He use that popular support?
And why didn't He let His disciples fight to prevent His arrest and execution? They had swords. Wasn't it better in human terms to continue preaching and teaching and healing, rather than surrender to the authorities and be put to death?
If force is good, Jesus seems awfully inconsistent, even cowardly, in using it.
Hi Kyle I think this must be tongue in cheek. :-) Why would anybody bother to worship a god with human plumbing. God does not need to procreate. As a being surely God has trancended all this petty human stuff? Axel
Hiya Iru - Thanks for your comment, it's been my experience that keeping your fingers crossed and hoping for the best is a worthless undertaking. There is no time or place for timidity. (See Paul's letters to Timothy.) I was broought up to believe that the only way for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. I'm with Jesus on this - when you see evil in action react and react immediately. Throw the money lenders out of the temple and do so expiditiously.
Brother in Christ, thank you for telling me about this post! Your transparency is so attractive - truth is truth and there is nothing like it. The story of 'never getting around to it' is so true of so many of us and the excuses are common and sound so feeble. They ARE feeble. Read on, my friend in the Lord. One day soon we will talk face to face about the things we love. Jesus, Jesus, Jesus and more Jesus! D. O. C. / DeAnn
Dear Brother. I pray for you everyday,my prayer is that God keeps you safe and gives you peace. I am proud of you, I want you to know that lessons have been learned. Joe I don't think I would be in the Prison Fellowship Ministry if it were not for what I have learned from you being in prison.I have learned to give my burdens to Jesus and not pick them back up.I have learned to praise Him through it all. I hope you know that you are loved and missed everyday. If you need anything call me. I Love You Bro Your Middle Sis. Mary
Joe, I know it is so hard for you to look back on the past, so don't. Look for what God has for you in the future and pray you have learned from your past. I am praying for you and I love you very much. Aunt Jenny
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Thanks for your reply!
I'm afraid that I wasn't as clear as I should have been in my previous post. I don't believe that Jesus was cowardly.
I was trying to point out that if the use of force was good, why didn't Jesus use more of it? If force is a good thing, then Jesus was lax by not employing it to advance His kingdom. But instead of promoting the use of force, He tells us to "resist not evil", and to turn the other cheek, and to go the extra mile. (Sermon on the Mount again, Matthew 5, 6, 7)
I think it takes a lot of bravery to live like that, to do good no matter what, and to never return evil for evil.
And Jesus didn't teach people to disobey. In fact, He told His disciples that they had to obey the very men He called hypocrites, simply because those hypocrites were in a place of authority. (Matt 23:1-3) As long as obeying was not sin, obedience was required.
Yes, He did indeed shine a light on the evil of the day, and He didn't let up. He was very persistent, and never compromised. But He never killed anyone, nor picked up a sword. Instead of killing, He brought the dead back to life.
The only reason the disciples had a sword at that time was to fulfill prophecy. (Luke 22:36-38) And that very prophecy called those sword-bearers "transgressors".
With all these examples and teachings against violence and force and rebellion, I think the question is more: why did Jesus use a whip in the temple at all? Personally, I think it is to show us that Jesus cannot abide evil. Evil will die on its own. To be with Jesus means to leave evil behind. If we cling to evil, He will drive us from His presence, just like He did the money changers.
Because if we insist on living under the "eye for an eye" system of law, returning evil for evil, then we should not expect to hang out with Jesus when He lets us have what we asked for, and leaves us in that very evil that He will not mix with. If we insist to be judged by a just law of "eye for an eye", He will! And we will die.
As the saying goes, those that live by the sword will die by the sword. (Matt. 26:52)
So if force is evil, it explains Jesus's teaching and actions, and we also need to leave it behind. But if force is good, we are left with a perplexing contradiction, since His teaching and behaviour don't seem to support it.
If this seems cowardly to you I will have to disagree.
Thanks for your reply.... I just have a few questions to add.
If sometimes force is required, why is the story of Jesus and the money changers the only place where He uses even a hint of physical force? Was there no other cause in His day that was worth fighting for?
What about the Pharisees? Why didn't He fight against them for leading the people astray instead of just rebuke them? For He even said that the Devil was their father!
What about the Romans who ruled over Israel? Why didn't he lead an insurrection against them? Or at least preach against the tax collectors? He had the people on His side, for there were times when the Jews wanted to kill Him, but they were afraid of the people. Why didn't He use that popular support?
And why didn't He let His disciples fight to prevent His arrest and execution? They had swords. Wasn't it better in human terms to continue preaching and teaching and healing, rather than surrender to the authorities and be put to death?
If force is good, Jesus seems awfully inconsistent, even cowardly, in using it.
D. O. C. / DeAnn
I pray for you everyday,my prayer is that God keeps you safe and gives you peace.
I am proud of you, I want you to know that lessons have been learned. Joe I don't think I would be in the Prison Fellowship Ministry if it
were not for what I have learned from you being in prison.I have learned to give my burdens to Jesus and not pick them back up.I have learned to praise Him through it all.
I hope you know that you are loved and missed everyday. If you need anything call me.
I Love You Bro Your Middle Sis.
Mary